Thanks for that.

Useful to know, especially for someone who finds it far easier to think in terms of words than images.

Absolutely, one of the big issues at FMS (in terms of design) appeared to be finding people who can move between the two.

At university I found every designer I met thought they were an artist, they werent given enough thought on the commercial value of their work.

The wonders of Google - two seconds and we have 1925 ads

http://www.rootsweb.com/~srgp/business/1926sev.htm

advertising people tend to think in terms of ideas that can be verbalized, whereas design people tend, inevitably, to think in terms of aesthetic impressions. Arguably, in today's hyper-visual world, it's the latter skill which is more valuable.

About time you talked about design over here.

Seriously, this is a good post and it's nice to see this written from an advertising point of view. Here's my thoughts on the individual points.

1) Don't really agree with this one. Perhaps it's true of the not so good designers.

2) Hmmm.

3) Well, it's certainly true that designers aren't so tortured by the thought of referencing a concept from the past but I'd disagree that they value control over everything else. They value small fonts over everything else.

4) True.

5) Very true. Plus we call funny 'wit'.

6) I think the main difference here is the zeros. Your average FMCGs Finance Director will scrutinise a £5M TV campaign much more than a £50k piece of packaging.

7) This one is very true.

8) Yep.

There is one thing you've missed and I'll write about it over on the nation's favourite design blog some time in the future. The main difference between design and advertising is how the businesses are run.

That can be your tag:

NoisyDecentGraphics - The Nations Favourite Design Blog

After all, if I can be labelled as "famous"...

7 is exactly right, most designers I know literally say "design = problem solving".

More from Google...."In 1925 Gilroy embarked on his long association with the advertising agency S H Benson Ltd (Benson's)" - though I admit he didn't start on Guinness until 1928....

Anyhow, this is all wonderful reading. Your point 6, for instance.One of the worst failings of clients is the extent to which they lavish their time and energies on what is most expensive rather than what is most important. The commercial impact of design can easily outweigh the effects of advertising (particularly given its long lifespan), and yet responsibility for it is often delegated while senior people agonise for months over a couple of posters.

My quibble with design springs from your point 8 - it can occasionally be a little fascistic (indeed totalitarian regimes often manifest a rather good design sense, as witnessed by Napoleon, Milan Railway Station, Hugo Boss designing the SS uniforms, etc).

What I mean by this is that - at times - little heed is paid by the deisgner to the public's taste or the views of the target audience; instead the designer's own aesthetic is imposed upon them. The target audience, in short, always being that 3% of the population which uses an Apple Mac (Steve Jobs being the apotheosis of the design-fascist - Albert Speer for the 21st Century).

Incidentally, that Wassily thing is a lot better to look at than to sit in. As a fat man, I generally find it was the Edwardian English who truly perfected the armchair.

I think we should remember that a lot of design usually sets out to last forever (or at least for a long time) whereas advertising never does.

Marketing Managers may talk about a campaign that lasts as long as The Economist but in reality they know they'll need to change tack just to keep everyone alert. Including their boss.

Isn't design integrated in advertising? As in design = problem solving in the field of advertising?

Very interesting. Many of those points feel spot on.

A few comments & caveats:

1. Victor Papanek described design as an activity which felt satisfying in the same way tidying a sock drawer is. I think of it as more about creating order & meaning than control?

2. I think you mean graphic identity design.

I think I'd exclude space (eg retail) service, interface and information design from your points and these really are at the leading edge of changing how our world actually works or flows.

While we are all beavering away these are the dam makers imho.

as an example of what I mean check out this interview:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/006284.html

3. Advertising & graphic identity design do have one thing in common; they are fixated by their creative output & each has built whole edifices of brand & business theory to fit this view. You could call them narcissistic industries; caught by the beauty of the(ir refelected) image. And hence frozen in time.

These are the leading industries (along with PR) of the mass production & consumerisation age - ie the 20th century.

What design, advertising and PR dont do however is live interaction, experience, conversation, hubbub; the spontaneous daily chatter of markets, blogs, gossip, rumours; ebay auctions, amazon reviews, blog recommendations.

They are like cave art (design) and shared myths (advertising) but they miss a very large part of the daily life of the tribe?

I think there's life after both graphic identity design & advertising - I tend to see each as (mostly, but with glorious exceptions) equally stuck in the 1980s or so

just to be controversial
(worth about 2p as always)

:J

Thanks for that, Richard. As stimulating as ever.

I think you flatter the design community with the generalisation that designers are more likely to think about solving problems.

As Ben has pointed out before, people calling themselves designers don't necessarily have a monopoly on problem-solving commonsense.

When I worked at a design consultancy, we all wanted to be addressing fundamental problems in just the same way that we (planners) did when I worked in an ad agency. But usually these high ideals defaulted to the creation of a nice new identity. Just as they defaulted to a 30 second commercial/DPS in the ad agency.

The problem is that both (planning) environments come with their own default executional solutions. As the old chestnut goes, when you've got a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Or something.

Yes, product/industrial and interaction designers are most likely to focus on problem solving but they are probably least likely to concern themselves with "the brand". I generalise, of course, but you get my drift.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for that. Helped me understand why I had fundamental differences with a designer friend on what would work for the brand when I was doing some freelance copywriting for her last year.

I don't think we should be hard on ourselves for not being able to provide every/any possible executional 'answer' to a business problem. We all try to solve our bit. Or as much of the problem as we can with our bit.

But one thing missing here is a definition of the problems we're all supposed to be solving. Very generally, design traditionally solves human need problems: functionality, facility, usability etc. Whereas, again (too) generally, advertising looks at more commercial problems. If we're talking about what we *should* all be doing, then yes, I'd say every day of the week that all of us should be looking at both commercial and design problems - regardless of our field.

It's the people who can solve business problems with thinking that feeds product/design AND comms solutions (+whatever else) who will bring us closer to the collaborative nirvana we're always talking about. I think that's why people say 'making stuff' is important. Because if you have that, learning how to solve business problems is relatively easy.

Advertising & graphic identity design do have one thing in common; they are fixated by their creative output & each has built whole edifices of brand & business theory to fit this view. You could call them narcissistic industries; caught by the beauty of their refelected image. And hence frozen in time.

This is the most frighteningly accurate one-sentence attack on our industries I have ever read. The only small defence is that it isn't only our fault - our clients have also built whole procedural and budgetary edifices which demand we maintain the illusion.

Having studied both design and advertising, the main difference I saw between the two was that design students saw themselves as artists, and their clients as the 'brand marketing brains'; whereas advertising/marketing students saw themselves as the true problem solvers/idea creators that would take the brand solution to their graphic designer friends to execute.

This difference, and perception, in my opinion, still exists in my industry circle.

Great post. Really interesting focus. I'm an advertising CD from a heavy design background, so i have an obvious spin on this!

From this modern ad-centric focus, there is a third designer beast.

Firstly the two you are discussing here (in my opinion):

1. a BAD designer: one that doesn't understand branding properly (emotion + marque) and doesn't see the bigger picture (problem solving/ideas)
2. a HARDCORE designer: one that just wants to focus on Swiss typefaces etc.

(1) you would do well to steer clear of as they will always give you bad solutions, (2) is a brilliant collaborative outlet for a specific job at which they will excel. Pick the right (2) to do the job you may have got (1) to do!

3. Is a designer with their head up, watching, listening, talking and thinking, much like an advertiser. They bring all the good qualities of design lead problem solving, user centric approach and practical experience + maturation into the social science/psychology and emotionally lead thinking of advertising.
That's a pretty powerful skill-set.

More and more of these beasts are maturing onto the scene. Two examples would be from 1 - The onset of digital blurring the lines between ad & content/product and idea & execution, and perhaps collapsing of old job boundaries 2 - TV channel branding that needs to convey information alongside personality.

Good designers learn how to think like advertisers also. Perhaps good advertisers do likewise in reverse?

Ultimately, I think designers and advertisers are after the same thing: a mark to be left behind that would link them to the rest of the world.

Both are creators. Both are constantly challenged by new problems. An advertiser's creation is only useful to the brand it is representing, and which would last as long as the brand wants that communication to last. A designer's creation can be used by the consumer-end, again and again -- until a new designer comes out and overtakes this designer's product. Neither is everlasting, really.

Designers don't necessarily solve problems. The problem comes from the designer him/herself: "I don't like that design" or "I think I can do better than that."

The two groups can collaborate together as long as they both can ultimately agree on one thing: neither will have a job if the client doesn't like it.